Ryan Adams on dating Winona

[Charles]

Hi Whisperer,

As I think you understand, I'm not suggesting that she is indiscriminately promiscuous, but rather this may be an accompanying compulsive behavior, as it often is with other compensatory compulsions. If this is the case with Winona, it likely did originate in her childhood, and was probably related to her family's lifestyle.

Sexual compulsion can be caused by sexual abuse or early exposure to sexual activities, but more likely it would result from the unstructured, chaotic upbringing in the hippie subculture. When you are a child and the adults/parents are experimenting with hallucinogens, its safe to assume that they were not consistently available. This could be very unsettling to the child, especially if this was the routine state of affairs in the family.

The way it usually works is that the child is very anxious not knowing what is expected or whether he/she is safe, and he/she will sometimes unconsciously resort to various compulsive behaviors to compensate for, or seek relief from, his/her anxiety. These compulsions often occur in clusters, including compulsive shopping, shoplifting, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, eating disorders, and sexual compulsions.

I've actually had an encounter with a woman who was most likely suffering from a strong sexual compulsion. It was a woman sitting next to me in the first class cabin of an airliner. She was tipsy and as we started to taxi, she started talking about being very anxious about take-offs. By the time we were at the end of the runway she all over me and by the time we were airborne we were making out like newlyweds.

That situation had nothing to do with me or who I was, but rather her trying to deal with her anxiety. In my case she was being indescriminate and inappropriate, but I suspect she was intensely compulsive. In another person it could take the milder form of "making a play" for a guy, say a rocker, regardless of whether he was married, such as Bono. It wouldn't necessarily have to end with sex, but rather just sexual advances.

So, I've said enough. This will make many folks very uneasy, but I assure all of you that I'm not judging Winona . . . this isn't about good or bad, but rather about a conditioned state of mind. And while it is often difficult to treat the person with compulsive behaviors, these compulsions can be significantly diminished and brought under control.

Cheers,
Charles


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[robbyhart]

I am glad to see that there are very open minded people on this forum. I was afraid that I would get ripped by saying anything that might be construed as negative criticism of Winona. I didn't mean to pass judgement on her I just wanted to put this idea out there for us to discuss. I appreciated all of your thoughtful comments.

robbyhart

[Charles]

Hi RobbyHart,

As both Whisperer and I pointed out, this is a very sensitive subject that really must be treated with great care. It's too easy for someone to read these posts and assume the writer is just trying to insult Winona. I think we can have these discussions here at the Film Page because we know that the other members, without exception, do indeed care for Winona and we wouldn't say anything intentionally that would be insulting to her.

However, I would caution you about making the same statements at other Winona fansite. You might well get ripped for it. But not here.

Cheers,
Charles

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[robbyhart]

Hey Charles,
The reason that I post here is that I like the people. I have been to other sites but didnt feel comfortable there because I didnt really like the people posting there. More than just being Winona fans, I think a lot of the people here are intelligent and willing to let someone speak their mind. I hope everyone here remains open minded. Later.

robbyhart

[Paul]

In the Charlie Rose interview in 1997 Winona describes herself as being the opposite of her parents: "conservative" and as a "square baby" that's inevitably the result of two "round parents". Up to that point she also said that she and her brothers had avoided drugs simply because she had observed the effects of them around her from her time at the commune. So, did her upbringing in the commune only impact on her later on in life because at the time of interview she and her lifestyle seemed fine and well-balanced?

As you say, the question of her sexual behaviour is a very sensitive subject requiring great care. My only concern is that someone might unwittingly talk about parts of her life that she would want to remain private and personal. Sometimes it is difficult to know where to draw the line.

Paul

[bigdaddy]

Yes, folks this is a sensitive topic. One we must not snicker over or make jokes about. And the benefit of this site is that we are a lot more tolerant of people discussing such matters without bringing out our weapons.
Having said this, I tend to go very easy on her over this.
This is in part due to the fact that I was raised with the classics and had to translate a guy called Suetonius into English from the Latin. (That was in school, I can't remember a thing of it today). Now, ol' Sue covered the Roman emperors...yup, Caligula and those guys. And you don't have to read latin to understand him. Most bookstores carry inexpensive translations of his book. He was basically concerned with one thing;"WHAT WOULD PEOPLE DO IF THEY HAD ENOUGH POWER AND MONEY TO DO ANYTHING THEY LIKED?" The answer was almost always;"Handle it very badly."
Go on. Read about Tiberius.Good emperor....at first. Then he got really sick of everybody always saying how great he was and retired to the isle of Crete (or was it Capri?) where he did...very bad things...(It's all there, just don't read it on a full stomach)
Do you see where I am going with this? The lady has wealth and power a Roman empeor could only imagine. and yet, by most accounts I have read and heard, she has remained relatively normal. If they gave me 5 mil even just once and allowed me to schlong as many starlets as I wanted, think I would come up for air too often? I am not being flippant . I don't KNOW what I would do.
Plus it is also in the perception. Okay. Say she came down that afternoon when one of our own was in her driveway and said;"I have ALWAYS wanted to make it with a man named RUSTY!" Or if she finally locked eyes with me and said;"Let's make it to Otis Redding" Live in Europe" just once before we die."
Think either of us would object? Heck, we would beam with glee if she just smiled at us.
And ya can't forget the sex angle. I mean the male/female thing. Elvis was a legend for the sexual swarth he cut across America. And how many ladies did Wilt Chamberlain do? I lost count.
Thing is, when somebody like Mick or Elvis does it, we say that they are dominant go-getter guys who just can't turn it off and are always at the mercy of their drive and energy. (We have come to the point where at least in public we say it is not necessarily a good thing, but to be expected with such ambition and drive.) When Madonna does it she is too sleazy to be brought home to momma.
I am not saying I like Winona Ryder taking off after every guy she is supposed to have taken off with...assumming the numbers and names are true...(and hey, that could be a big if!) but I cut Miles Davis a lot of slack because he created great art that touched me, even though he could be a very BAD guy.(Read his bio...nothing has changed..anything you can think of, he did better, I mean it...) Winnona Ryder is an actress and makes good art
I wish her private life was more happy and fulfilled, but I don;t know if mine would be any better in her shoes.

[Charles]

Hi Paul,

I don't expect this discussion to last much longer, however, if we want to understand the depth and breath of Winona's challenges, it was useful to have it. To date all the rumors about Winona's dating habits have been sneering put-downs . . . one website went so far as to say that her most private anatomy was basically a welcome mat for up and coming rockers. I almost got thrown off a site for my reaction to that.

And her friend, Courntney, made the infamous public statement that,"you hadn't arrived until you had slept with Winona and had a fight with me." And they remained friends. My point is that this is the first thoughtful, informed, and compassionate discussion of these sensitive issues that I've seen.

Regarding the Charlie Rose interview, it was publicity. I know, for example, how she describe being with Timothy Leary at his death was just not true. Winona was as sweet young woman wanting to come off publically as well as possible. I am suggesting that the root problems were there, she just wasn't in crisis. But her discussion was laced with references to lifelong depression and anxiety.

Compulsive behaviors DO get worse with age. Onset is usually in the teen years, but the most severe response usually comes later when the compulsion interferes with the persons life, such as being caught shoplifting, or loosing a job from alcoholism, etc. We all watched Winona's career sag, romances unable to be sustained, and a thirtieth birthday that no doubt brought all these difficulties into high relief for Winona.

All of these circumstance exascerbated her problems. By the time we got our "snapshot" in December 2001, we saw a sick and troubled young woman. As she turns around her life and gets healthy again the problems will recede and her fortunes will hopefully soar once again.

Cheers,
Charles


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[Whispering]

>>>>I know, for example, how she describe being with Timothy Leary at his death was just not true>>>>>>>


Charles, how do you know for sure that it's not true??

[Charles]

Hi Whisperer,

I saw a televised interview with one of his relatives who was present when he died. While the woman didn't refute Winona's statements directly - she was clearly aware of them - she said that Winona arrived after Timothy had died and was allow a brief period of time alone with his body.

Cindy Horowitz has been noted as saying that her daughter likes to exaggerate. But it goes beyond that. Remember her saying how she would have these late night phone calls with fellow insomniac Al Pacino (after they filmed "Simone?" Within a matter of days Pacino publically said that it was not true . . . that they had never spoken late at night. And the list goes on and on and on.

I must say, while I can be immensely understanding of most of her compulsive behaviors, for some reason I do have a problem with this. It doesn't make her bad, she just isn't reliably believable. In the past it has been attributed to her sense of theatrics, i.e. telling the story the way it SHOULD have been. But in reality it is yet another compulsion.

Having said this, I would rather not prolong this discussion, although I don't want to inhibit others. If asked, I can produce a litany of inaccuracies, but I don't want to do that. Because to me, my describing these incidents would not be a benevolent act, but rather accusatory. It would be the same if I went into chapter and verse on all the guys she has allegedly tried to seduce. For me, this would be crossing the line that Paul referred to.

So, feel free to assume I'm full of sh*t . Regardless, she is still the apple of my eye . . .

Cheers,
Charles


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[Whispering]

Charles, your never full of shit. I applaud your intelligence and insight on all your posts! Considering Winona herself has mentioned something along the lines of “I don’t lie, I ENHANCE”........I personally would like to see the “list inaccuracies” because i don’t see the point in hiding them. I understand why listing them may seem accusatory but i don’t see it in that way considering that we all love Winona no matter what because as much as we hate to admit it she is not that “ideal” human being that we like to fantasize that she is(or at least i do) she is flawed like all of us and as she once said in an interview regarding her finding that perfect mate "It’s great to finally find someone who you can show your flaws to and they EMBRACE them."

I don’t want this thread to turn into something one can find in some sleazy tabloid magazine. As a HUGH fan It’s easier for me to believe in an illusion(Winona) because it does save me from a lot of pain and allows me to enjoy the pleasure of imaging Winona as this perfect goddess but i would also like to discuss the not so perfect sides of Winona Ryder if this means hearing about all men that she has allegedly seduced then so be it because that’s what makes Winona Ryder all the more real. We shouldn’t Conceal any of her flaws because people will imagine the worst. So, Charles if you know something we don’t about Winona that’s not very flattering, i personally would like to hear it and if others don’t than perhaps Charles if you don’t mind you can e-mail it to me.

[xeper]

I think she definitely has some compulsive tendencies. And it's obvious she exaggerates things sometimes (nobody always tells everything like it is all the time anyway). I do think, though, that some of the stories about her and some of the discrepancies in what she has said are falsely reported and exaggerated themselves (some, not all). The thing with the Timothy Leary story is that maybe she was able to see him right before he died and it was just simpler and sounded better for her to say she saw him right when he died. I know I've done things like that before, although I try to stick to the facts and not exaggerate. I think when she does exaggerate it's mostly over harmless things. As far as the dating musicians thing goes, yeah, she has dated a lot of musicians, but like Ryan Adams himself says:
"So what if she dates musicians. She likes music!"
I don't think she's doing it just to be cool or stay in the limelight. Like I said before, I think a lot of these reports about how she is with a different musician every week are gossip (although she does seem to date a lot, how much only she knows) but some of them are truth and I think it would be nice if she could shake off that reputation. In the end it's her choice who she wants to date, I just hope she's happy doing it.

[Charles]

Hi Folks,

This whole discussion got much more weighty than I realized it would. Whisperer, because I understand compulsion disorders, I am comfortable commenting confidently on that subject. But with regard to discrepancies in stories, I can't know anything about that so I'm not comfortable speculating on her veracity.

Xeper, I like the spirit of your post. Frankly I admire and adore Winona because she is this amazing creature. These discussions of behavior have no effect on my feelings. As you said, we are adoring a symbol of perfection where real life only really matters to Winona, not us.

Having led us into these serious discussions, I will urge all to join me in reminding ourselves of what a remarkable person she is. Its hard knowing that she's not well, but the best we can offer are our best wishes.

Thanks,
Charles


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[Whispering]

I agree Xeper, i too believe that all those rumors about her dating a lot of musicians is over exaggerate by the press. David Pirner and Ryan Adams are the only 2 she has dated because Winona herself has dispelled all the others that she was rumored to have dated. I think that she mostly just likes to hang out with musicians rather than date every single one she meets as been reported.

[Whispering]

Charles, i your right "real life only really matters to Winona, not us," but i guess my obsession with Winona has gotten to the point where i am curious to know everything about her PERSONAL life. I better stop because it’s non of my business and only Winona knows the truth behind all those alleged rumors. We can only adore her from a far and pray that she finds happiness doing what she wants and seeing who she wants.

[Charles]

Amen . . .

Charles


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